Preface: About a year ago, a friend of mine (I'll just call him Stephen M. ^_^) decided to publish an anime-related periodical. I was to get information and opinions on cel collecting. Ed Noonchester seemed the obvious choice to interview for the inaugural issue. He was very gracious and put a lot of time and effort into answering my questions. But said publication never got out the door, and the interview seemed to have been for naught. Now that I have sufficient space on my site, it seemed a good idea to present the interview in its entirety. Keep in mind it was conducted over a year ago, and all opinions are Ed's. This should not be considered an endorsement of any kind.
Q: You're recognized as a pioneer in the US anime market, when did you start?
Ed: I got interested in Japanese animation back in 1974, when I went to the World's Fair in Spokane, Washington. At the Japanese Pavilion we saw a display which included something about Giant Robot animation. Back in LA some friends told us about some shows on a Japanese UHF station. That was my introduction to "Yusha Raideen" and the whole family got into it big time. A little later we heard about a fan group that was starting up that watched Japanese animation all day long and that was when I started taking my kids to "CFO." We saw many shows there for the first time.
Q: What got you into it in the first place (cel collection and dealing)?
Ed: At the 1980 San Diego Comic Convention I got the chance to see and enjoy many new and marvelous things. By then we had made friends with a young Japanese man who was coming to San Diego each year. It was through this friend that we first met our friends Monkey Punch, Go Nagai and Ippei Kuri (head of Tatsunoko Studios!) I had been dealing at the San Diego Convention since the second one and at the time this happened I was selling comics and comic artwork. I was agent for the Filipino artists that were just starting to work in American comics. At that 1980 convention I was able to buy some cels from such shows as Gatchaman, Lupin III, and the movie Phoenix 2772. Still, at that point I had no idea that I would either collect or deal in Japanese animation cels.
In 1981, I had the chance to visit my new friends in the Philippines and visit my new friends in Japan. I have to say that both parts of the trip were glorious experiences. While in Tokyo, our friend from the San Diego Convention introduced us to friends both in comics and in animation. It was through a young friend of his, a college student, that we first learned of cel collecting and dealing. We also met another friend who was a key animator with Nippon Sunrise. We did some trading with him and got a few more cels. In the years to come, both the animator and the college student would send us cels to sell for them and that was our first experience selling cels. Still that did not make up any large proportion of the convention business which we did.
In 1987, we went to a convention in Phoenix Arizona and there met a "real" cel dealer from Japan. We made friends with him and bought cels to sell at San Diego and anyplace else we could find. We told him about the San Diego Convention and 1988 he came over for that convention and brought a large number of cels, which we sold for him at our table. We did very well selling his cels for him. He was very pleased as well so over the next two years he would send us cels for us to sell for him. We really started to enjoy the cel business and since he was making more than we, we decided to branch off on our own. So in 1991 we made our first trip to Japan to buy cels. We started slow but really enjoyed ourselves and made a little money so were off and running. The rest, as they say, is history.
Q: Do you collect cels as well as sell them? If so, any favorites?
Ed: Yes, I and all my family all collect cels to one extent or another. We each have our own areas of interest and there is a little common ground. Like other dealers, we hold out a little for ourselves. For the most part we have not saved our very best but have made them available to fans. Over time our collections have improved. At most we usually have only one cel from a given series or movie and we follow our taste. At times I might collect mecha while other family members collect other things. We all like Miazaki, with my son going with "Castle of Cagliostro" and his mother going with "Nausica" and I like everything. Other dealers have larger collections than ours. This type of collecting is still new here. Even in Japan, most cel collecting started with "Yamato" while collections here are of more recent vintage. We have seen collections which boggle the mind. We have seen whole walls of huge folders full of cels from shows going back to "Mighty Atom" and before. The big collectors in Japan are very selective and will collect only the cels done by certain animators at the studio. The top-line collectors do not ever sell their collections. They will trade if they can get something better. It will be many years before we reach the point where they are now. I enjoy my collection and am proud of what I have.
Q: Please comment on the growth of the hobby. Has it been gaining popularity steadily or exponentially? Are more dealers entering the market?
Ed: We are very pleased with the growth of Japanimation fandom. It makes for more collectors, up and coming artists, model makers and people to visit with in general. I see the growth as being constant and also having occasional big jumps that are tied to other things like releases of movies and such. A perfect example of this was the increase in interest after Akira was released to theaters and the release of "Ghost in the Shell" to video. Japanimation fandom is rather like a living thing with ups and downs and good days and bad. We have nowhere reached the top but growth is not limitless by any stretch of the imagination. A good example would be a recent one-day animation convention in northern California. Their first year they had about 400 people and last year they had nearly 750 and this year they had reached 1,100 by 1:00 pm when they stopped counting and the line-up to get in was still around the building. One big difference between them and other conventions is the effort they put into advertising. Their efforts will only help all other conventions as new fans find out about these activities.
Fan clubs are blooming in High Schools and colleges all over the country. The advantage of this fandom is that there is something different there for all tastes. As in all fan followings there will be some collectors who will be true to their first love while others love almost everything new that comes out. Some of what we like most about Japanimation comes from the very real difference in the demographics of the products. You should know that the creators do not even consider whether a show they are producing will be liked in the U.S. or not. The product is sold to the market in Japan. If it has a following in our country or in Europe, it is very nice, but not their goal. I am not even sure that the product would be any better if they did. I tend to think it would not help and might hurt. Everyone knows that animation here is for little kids and there are very few exceptions, which you can count on the fingers of your hands. Japanimation is created for mostly pubescent and older boys. In that context, it is not difficult to see why there are so many shower scenes and flashes of skin. There is a very strong relationship between manga and anime. If it is hot in manga, it will probably end up as anime at some time. Art style is representative of the taste in the culture. Perhaps you may have wondered why all the characters look like they could be Americans. They have a strong affinity for eyes in Japan and use artistic license in their creations so they can show the large expressive eyes. It isn't really an attempt to make them look westernized. Odd, isn't it! The amount of nudity shown on TV in Japan is a reflection of the culture and anime is simply a reflection of that. Since breasts and butts will show up commonly in news programs and movies on TV, is there any wonder why it shows up in animation? A seeming contradiction is the freedom to show this much nudity and yet stop at a point they will not go beyond. I think you know what that is even if I do not spell it out for you. The combination of the many different aspects of their culture is a great part of why it is so liked here.
One aspect of Japanimation, which I find most interesting and gratifying, is how it crosses so many cultural and ethnic lines to reach its broad fan base. At conventions we have met collectors from every state and foreign countries like China, Taiwan, India, Australia, New Zealand, Vietnam, Great Britain, France, Korea, Germany, and Japan. We have also sold by mail to Thailand, Belgium, Canada, Netherlands, and Austria. I find it exciting that we have found a common ground in Japanimation.
I wish to take a moment to express my appreciation to someone who played a very large part in this hobby catching on in this country. Some people like him and others may hate him, but I feel we all owe a great debt to Carl Macek. I firmly believe that fandom would not be where it is now if it were not for "Robotech." He has been a leader and has stood up for us when he was the only voice. We are much stronger now but we never could have made it without him. Thanks again, Carl.
Q: I've been collecting for just a year, but in that time have noticed cel prices rising steadily. Is there an end in sight? Are cheap cels still available?
Ed: There are a number of reasons why the cost of cels has gone up so much over the last year or so. Most of these reasons, however, are related to the old laws of commerce, "Supply and Demand." There are many products, which are tied to this fandom. There are posters, books, magazines, tapes, laser discs, toys, dolls and model kits. All of these are mass-produced to one extent or another. There is a starting price for these items, which is based on the wholesale price in Japan. Cels are artwork. They are one of a kind. No two original, production cels are exactly alike. That is the nature of cels and animation. Right now it is a dealers' market. When fans are willing to pay the price for a given cel then that is its retail price. The number of fans competing for the same number of cels has gone up by as many as ten times. Of course, there are the original collectors in Japan who live there, speak the language and know the right people and then there are the collectors and dealers from the U.S. and Europe who are also buying the cels. Add to this mix the dealers in both countries who are out to make a quick buck and don't care what they do to the hobby. Most of the new dealers within the last year or so are of this type. Every year, when I go to Japan, I have to pay more for the product so even my prices have to go up just to stay even.
Consider the number of cels produced for a half-hour TV show. First consider that the opening and closing credits are repeated and that there may be certain sequences from a given show that are stock and do not have to be reanimated. Take into account that in any given show that there are many scenes, which we might call "talking heads." The number of "Prime" cels which remain after all the mouth and hand movements and back and side shots and distance shots are eliminated could be as few as 20 cels. If you were to buy cels from a studio by the kilo you would find that very few of them would be worth anything at all. This is basically true of almost all animation. The number of additional "Prime" cels for a top show versus any ordinary show might be as few as 20-30 additional cels. You will also find that many of the best backgrounds do not match up with the best cels. Add to this the fact that there are many art designers and animators who collect their own work so even fans in Japan can't get their work. Also there is an elite group of collectors in Japan who have money and contacts so that they are able to buy the best of what becomes available even before the rest of the fans even see these things.
The price of a product is not determined by what a seller is asking but by how much the buyer is willing to pay. When I go to Japan and buy cels at a much higher price I am taking a gamble that I will even be able to cover my costs. I have tried to buy a wide range of titles but it always seems that many people ask for things I do not have. It is the chance you take. I have a supply but there is no demand. There are a few stores in Japan that actually sell cels and they don't have anything that we might be interested in. I know, because I have looked. All anime shops you read about in the magazines only sell the spin-off products like the posters and magazines. It takes time, experience and patience to find cels. It also takes a great deal of luck.
Q: Do you have any advice/suggestions for newcomers to the hobby? How about long-time collectors?
Ed: There is a lot to learn and a lot to teach here. A good suggestion would be to take it a little easy at first while you are still learning the ropes. The hobby is changing constantly and there are many new things all the time. Consider it like going to a feast after having not eaten for many days. Take it slow. There is plenty to see. You might like something you see tomorrow more than the thing that impressed you so much today. With books and things you will still have the chance to buy another day, by then you may not care any more. Some things, like cels, are a big investment and even if you get it at a very good price it could still be too high if you don't even like the show any more. The hobby is even more changing in Japan where they are bombarded with new products all the time. Exchange ideas. It is allowable to have an opinion. Like me, however, there will still be many things you will love at first sight. Most of all enjoy it and be glad that you were there close to the beginning and got to see it all.
Q: What should a collector look for when choosing a cel? (Yeah, I know, it's a pretty nebulous question, sorry.)
Ed: There is so much there for a person to like that in choosing a cel all I can really say is follow your heart. Tastes are different. Obviously most collectors buy cels from their favorite shows. They might buy any character or all of them or only one special character. The most disappointed fans are the ones who are looking for a cel from some special scene. The chances of this coming true are about as good as being picked to be an astronaut. Be realistic. Many fans have asked me to watch for a special scene. Chances are that I may have never even seen the show, much less that scene but I will do my best. If you follow your heart in picking your cels to buy, you still have to use your head when it comes to taking out your wallet. Don't spend more than you can afford. (This advice is coming from a dealer.) Nothing is worth losing the "farm" or your house or your spouse or family.
A very difficult decision to make in buying cels is whether to buy it now or wait until later when you can better afford to buy. Remember that cels are one of a kind. The one you want may be still there at the next show or it may not be there an hour later. Whichever decision you make you are taking a risk. There is always a chance that even if you do buy it now you just might find another one later that you like even more. In my case, it usually turns out to be cheaper as well. It is all part of the dilemma. There is no answer to this. Then, there is the old saying about the "bird in the hand being worth two in the bush." You may never see that cel again. You can always ask the dealer if you can make a deposit and pay it off in installments. Most dealers will probably do that. I know that we do.
Another thing to look at would be the condition of the cel. Since the cels were actually used for something there are very few that are in perfect condition. The cels could be a little rough around the edges or have extraneous paint on them from other cels or even a bend in the plastic. You are the only judge as to whether these imperfections reduce the value of the cel. If two cels are equal in your eyes except for the condition then that may be the difference for you. Once you buy the cels you will need to protect and store them. Direct sunlight may fade the lines. If you wish to frame for the wall then the best you can do is to frame using acid-free mat and, if possible, UVA-resistant glass. Keeping out of direct sunlight will also help. The paints are bright and clear and don't fade but if the lines go, the picture won't make much sense.
Q: Which are the "hot" titles in the cel market? How about the less popular titles? (I.e., which ones are more affordable? Which require a private mint?)
Ed: I would have to say that overall the hottest title is a show from Gainax called "Evangelion" and is very hot indeed. The female characters and the mecha are quite interesting and attractive. What is making the price so high is the fact that the studio is keeping all the cels under lock and key so the cels getting into fandom are very few so are very expensive in Japan. Rumor has it that the studio will be having some kind of big show over the summer and that cels could be available after that. If that is the case, cels which are going for $500 and above now may be under $100 after that. It is still rumor though and should be taken as such. Another hot show would be "Escaflowne" from Nippon Sunrise. It is expensive for the same reason as "Evangelion," but with no rumor about when the cels may become available. Either show is very expensive but perhaps artificially so since the studio is hoarding the cels for a while. My suggestion on those shows would be to be patient and hope for the best. I will probably hold off even looking for them until my next trip. Other "HOT" shows would still be "Ah! My Goddess," "You're Under Arrest," "Macross Plus," and anything by Miazaki. Some shows are not new but have a large following and few cels to fill the void include: "Five Star Stories," "Galactic Hero," "Ghost in the Shell," "Gunbuster," "Gunnm," "Orange Road," "Plastic Little," "Ranma 1/2," "Street Fighter the Movie," "Urotsukidoji," "Urusei Yatsura," "Venus Wars" and "Wings of Honneamise." These, when available, tend towards the high range because they are very rare. There are many shows that are priced about what they are worth like "Armitage III," "Bakuretsu Hunter," "DNA2," "Dirty Pair," "Dominion," "El Hazard," "Giant Robo," "Magical Knight Ray Earth," "Super Cat Girl," "Tenchi Muyo," "Video Girl Ai," and "Yamato." The shows that might be underpriced based on their quality and art would be: "Babel 2," "Blue Seed," "Burn Up W," "Fam and Irie (also called Ruin Explorer)," "Fatal Fury," "Macross II", "Macross 7," "Patlabor," "Saint Seya," and "Vampire Princess Miyu." Again, though, what you collect is up to you and it doesn't matter if it is a good deal or not if you don't care for the show.
Q: Do you consider anime cels to be an investment? Or do you think the market might collapse? (Pure judgment here, you won't be held responsible for any lost fortunes. ^_^)
Ed: I do not really consider that cel collecting is an investment. Most likely what you will buy will go up in value faster than inflation but there is no guarantee. My advice in this would be the same that is usually given regarding sports cards and comics. Buy something because you like it and not because you think it will go up in value. That way, no matter what happens, you will never be disappointed. The quick return on your investment will not give you the return you are looking for. It is best to not even think about it in those terms but rather you might look at it like your hobby and stick with it over the long haul. You will undoubtedly regret it even if you sell for double what you paid for it.
Q: What kind of paint is used for painting cels? Can small imperfections be touched up? Would doing so lower the value of the cel?
Ed: As best that I can tell, cel paint is an oil-based paint that is available over here as well in Japan. Many studios mix their own so colors are often unique to that studio and difficult to match. As in comics and other collectibles, it is not appropriate to make touch-ups on cels you wish to sell even if you could make a match. If you wish to fix a cel that you are not intending to sell, it is up to you. If you try to fix it then only make it worse, you have no one to blame but yourself.
Q: Is there a safe way to remove stuck paper from cels, or stuck cels from each other? (I've been told using benzine or putting cels in the freezer can loosen stuck paper, but I've been afraid to try either.)
Ed: This is one of the common problems of this hobby. It is common for cels to sit someplace that is too hot and for the paint to become soft then stick to paper or other cels when the temperature goes back down. If a cel sticks to paper but causes no problem with the appearance then simply leave it alone. I have had little success with either method you describe. If you must remove the paper from the cel, then you must first recognize that the cel is the thing that must be saved and not the paper. You may try any method you wish to try to remove the paper but always the main concern is to not remove the paint from the cel. In these circumstances I find that water is your friend. The paint is oil based. You can trim off as much of the paper as you can then put it to soak in water at room temperature. The paper will soften over time then you can simply roll off the remainder. Just be careful.
Q: What is the best way to store cels?
Ed: The storage of cels is similar to many other valuable things. In other words, store in a cool and dry place. Add to that to avoid direct sunlight and there you have the basics. You obviously do things differently if you wish to display your cels. A growing method is what are called "Clear Books." These are paper or plastic binders with about 20 pages that are clear plastic pockets in which you can store 40 cels, one on each side of a page. That is how most dealers display their wares. These books can be found in the US at stores that sell office supplies, particularly for accountants and book keeps. It may also be possible to find them at art supply stores. I buy mine in Japan because they sell a larger size than I have been able to find here that can be used for larger cels and most cels with backgrounds. When I do buy these books I am limited to only buying the few that I need for business due to limitations of space and weight on the airplane. Still, if you want and if they fit, you can always store them in a shirt box under your bed. There are no hard, fast rules. Just use a little T.L.C..
Q: Anything else you would like to share?
Ed: All I can add is go to conventions when you can. For me, the biggest and the best is Anime Expo held each year in Southern California. It is a real blast. I have enjoyed it each year. Enjoy your collecting and everything that goes with it. In the meal of life, Japanimation fandom is the dessert, so enjoy and dive right in.